Subtractor 2

[Creativemind]

Hi All!

This is my idea for a Subtractor update...Subtractor 2.

I've used paint but it is very fiddly and also the design is not finished. If anyone wants to redesign this for me, that'd be great. Try to keep my design in mind if you can.

I propose a drop down at the bottom to open it up like you can with the Dr.Octo.Rex, Thor and Kong. This reveals 3 sections. 2 FX Sections and a Mod Matrix. I've included FX section 1 (Reverb, Delay, Chorus, Unison) and the Mod Matrix but only one section will be displayed in my Subtractor 2 idea. So it scrolls maybe with an arrow and slides from right to left. So you click the arrow to go from FX section 1 to FX section 2 (Flanging, Phasing, Distortion, Saturation) to say a (10 slot) Mod Matrix.

I've rescaled the left and right main sections as I moved them down to make space for the number 2 above so I needed to rescale them. Might make it a little easier to see with small monitors (having bigger knobs). I also propose Subtractor be made stereo instead of just mono. Yes I know you can hook 2 up but it wouldn't it be better to save all the hassle? It'd be great to have it switchable from mono to stereo so I've included a button on my design here (that lights up) as you can see it's above the Portamento knob to go from Stereo to Mono. In hindsight, maybe this could do with being a switch actually. Mono on the left, stereo on the right or would it be better to just make Subtractor stereo by default? I just thought the option to have whichever you wanted would be better?

Also, I have heard that the Subtractor has aliasing issues? this could also be addressed in a Subtractor 2.

Also, Subtractor 2 could have 3 different colour modes? - The turquoise blue one as it is now is the default but also have dark blue and black too?

Thanks!

[Oquasec]

They've proven it was possible when they made a mk2 rv7000.
The only excuse they got is resources were used to make europa & Grain.

[esselfortium]

Personally, rather than seeing it bundled with reverb and delay effects that can already be easily added in the rack, I'd rather see some new filter types added, like the high-quality ones in Europa. Loop and sync options on the mod envelope would also be nice, so it could double as a third LFO.

[Loque]

I guess s/m stands more mono/stereo, which is not necessary, just add another audio out. Instead of a unison FX add detune and unisone per voice, so it needs to go up into the voice area. Big logos are just waste of space.

I dont need the fx in general. I appreciate the mod matrix.

More wavetables would be nice in a Subtractor2. Gimme audio in for FM! And maybe a ultra high quality switch. Sync/Unsync of the oscillators. A few more filters.

But if i think about, do i really need a 2nd edition of Subtractor? Well, i would quickly have Thor or Europa. Rather Europa, and where i have to rebuild the aliasing to get the dirty sound back. But a few more control and add ons in Subtractor could help, if i started the sound (dirty fm and stuff like that) in Subtractor and wont switch to a other synth.

[Creativemind]

They've proven it was possible when they made a mk2 rv7000.
The only excuse they got is resources were used to make europa & Grain.

You're right. I think Europa and Grain were great but maybe they should've updated Subtractor and Thor first?

[Ahornberg]

AFAIK Reason has a lot of reverb, delay and so on ready built in. So put SubTractor and the FX of your choice into a Combinator and you're ready to go

[jimmyklane]

Hi All!

This is my idea for a Subtractor update...Subtractor 2.

I've used paint but it is very fiddly and also the design is not finished. If anyone wants to redesign this for me, that'd be great. Try to keep my design in mind if you can.

I propose a drop down at the bottom to open it up like you can with the Dr.Octo.Rex, Thor and Kong. This reveals 3 sections. 2 FX Sections and a Mod Matrix. I've included FX section 1 (Reverb, Delay, Chorus, Unison) and the Mod Matrix but only one section will be displayed in my Subtractor 2 idea. So it scrolls maybe with an arrow and slides from right to left. So you click the arrow to go from FX section 1 to FX section 2 (Flanging, Phasing, Distortion, Saturation) to say a (10 slot) Mod Matrix.

I've rescaled the left and right main sections as I moved them down to make space for the number 2 above so I needed to rescale them. Might make it a little easier to see with small monitors (having bigger knobs). I also propose Subtractor be made stereo instead of just mono. Yes I know you can hook 2 up but it wouldn't it be better to save all the hassle? It'd be great to have it switchable from mono to stereo so I've included a button on my design here (that lights up) as you can see it's above the Portamento knob to go from Stereo to Mono. In hindsight, maybe this could do with being a switch actually. Mono on the left, stereo on the right or would it be better to just make Subtractor stereo by default? I just thought the option to have whichever you wanted would be better?

Also, I have heard that the Subtractor has aliasing issues? this could also be addressed in a Subtractor 2.

Also, Subtractor 2 could have 3 different colour modes? - The turquoise blue one as it is now is the default but also have dark blue and black too?

Thanks!

Subtractor is actually a fairly unique synth, with it’s phase +/-/x model....the oscillators and waveforms are all very well set up for a subtractive model. A mod-matrix would be interesting, but more interesting to me would be some high horsepower ZD model filters...subtractor breaks down under high-resonance, as do most digital filter implementations....the fact that it’s a polysynth and is only monophonic is not a show stopper for me...many classic hardware polysynths only have a mono output. Filter FM is possible now that we have devices like Pulsar that really crank LFOs into audio rate, as well as old tricks like routing a Thor oscillator out of its CV output into any filter....but if you try that in Subtractor or even Thor you very very quickly run into aliasing of the CV itself, along with oscillator aliasing.

So, for me, any Subtractor2 would need to be an internal sonic update with a “compatibility mode” (like the EQ settings in the old 14:2) to load old tracks.

[mark999]

I never understood why the original Subtractor only has mono output. What were the benefits of designing it like that in Reason 1.0 and what are the benefits of having only mono out in 2018????

[esselfortium]

I never understood why the original Subtractor only has mono output. What were the benefits of designing it like that in Reason 1.0 and what are the benefits of having only mono out in 2018????

Synth oscillators are mono, so unless you’re just creating the same oscillator twice with slightly different tuning and then individually panning each of them, or unless subtractor had a built-in unison effect to do it for you, there wasn’t really much for stereo outputs to actually do.

Given that subtractor was created at a time when the manual actually had to tell users that using fewer of its osc and filter features would make it less cpu-intensive, the unison or whatever other additions needed to make a stereo output worthwhile would have been basically useless when it was designed.

Its mono output also meant that the chorus/flanger and some other Reason effects (and even REs nowadays!) would be able to utilize their mono-to-stereo routing without the user having to do anything special.

[Micha1973]

I think only about mono/stereo tool. so we can switch. Nothing else. Subtractor is a great synth. and you can make everthing you want..only mono/stereo i to switch in the synth i miss

[Loque]

I never understood why the original Subtractor only has mono output. What were the benefits of designing it like that in Reason 1.0 and what are the benefits of having only mono out in 2018????

A synth is mono by default, that means it generates same signals for left and right (thats why only 1 channel is needed). Only through variation between left/right signals it creates a stereo signal. If you have a synth that creates a stereo signal by default, it varies the signals from left/right and you probably do not have control how it creates the variations between left/right.

If you dont have control how the left/right signals are generated, you need to have an fx to control the width to make it fit in the mix.

What do you expect how "stereo" a synth should be and how it should sound?

[esselfortium]

Though Subtractor being in mono is logical and IMO a non-issue for the reasons I explained above, I do think it was a mistake not to allow stereo routing more easily in Thor (i.e. from the front panel and without mod matrix hacks) with independently pannable oscillators and a stereo option for its Multi Osc.

[Ahornberg]

How should stereo work in SubTractor 2?
Each Oscillator gets its own output and the noise oscillator is sent to both outputs?
Or should there be a panning parameter for each oscillator that can be controlled by an envelope or an LFO?
Or whatever?
I think, saying "I want it stereo" is not enough. A little more details wound be appreciated

[Micha1973]

How should stereo work in SubTractor 2?
Each Oscillator gets its own output and the noise oscillator is sent to both outputs?
Or should there be a panning parameter for each oscillator that can be controlled by an envelope or an LFO?
Or whatever?
I think, saying "I want it stereo" is not enough. A little more details wound be appreciated

I hope ph do a little work on sutractor - so i must not take other tools to do stereo within it. i think on a little knop. so i can chance mono or stereo. thats all*

[Ahornberg]

How should stereo work in SubTractor 2?
Each Oscillator gets its own output and the noise oscillator is sent to both outputs?
Or should there be a panning parameter for each oscillator that can be controlled by an envelope or an LFO?
Or whatever?
I think, saying "I want it stereo" is not enough. A little more details wound be appreciated

I hope ph do a little work on sutractor - so i must not take other tools to do stereo within it. i think on a little knop. so i can chance mono or stereo. thats all*

What changes in sound do you expect by switching from mono to stereo?

[Micha1973]

mono for basses and drums. stereo for synths and some fx and pads.

[Ahornberg]

mono for basses and drums. stereo for synths and some fx and pads.

ok, but what means "stereo" for you? How does this sound? What's the difference to "mono"?

[Micha1973]

mono for "direct" in your face - and stereo a wideness with panning and so on

[Creativemind]

I hope ph do a little work on sutractor - so i must not take other tools to do stereo within it. i think on a little knop. so i can chance mono or stereo. thats all*

What changes in sound do you expect by switching from mono to stereo?

More professional lol! no, well the way I see it, just a slightly bigger sound wouldn't it as there'd be 2 green bars on the mix channel above it instead of 1?

[Ahornberg]

mono for "direct" in your face - and stereo a wideness with panning and so on

Subtractor has 2 oscillators and a noise oscillator. How do you want them to be panned?

[Creativemind]

mono for basses and drums. stereo for synths and some fx and pads.

Yeah with Subtractor being mono, I kind of think it was designed more for basses but that's just my take. There are many sounds creatable within it, indicated by the patches available.

[Ahornberg]

What changes in sound do you expect by switching from mono to stereo?

More professional lol! no, well the way I see it, just a slightly bigger sound wouldn't it as there'd be 2 green bars on the mix channel above it instead of 1?

How do you create a "slightly bigger sound"? What do you do with 3 given osillators?

[Creativemind]

mono for "direct" in your face - and stereo a wideness with panning and so on

Subtractor has 2 oscillators and a noise oscillator. How do you want them to be panned?

Is it anything to do with that necassarily?

Wouldn't it be just 2 Audio outputs on the back going to the mix channel like Thor has? so it goes to the left right inputs of the mix channel.

[Micha1973]

Not more professional. but the one knob to make it* nothing more

[esselfortium]

Subtractor has 2 oscillators and a noise oscillator. How do you want them to be panned?

Is it anything to do with that necassarily?

Wouldn't it be just 2 Audio outputs on the back going to the mix channel like Thor has? so it goes to the left right inputs of the mix channel.

Thor has stereo outputs because its chorus, delay, and the rarely-used output panning are stereo, even though its oscillators and filter 1 and 2 are all mono. Subtractor doesn't have any of these things.