Future RE purchase concerns.

[Philup]

The solution... Just wait until v13 to get your monies worth... As has always been the case with RS "All Hat no Cattle" marketing.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Got to upgrade if your want to use the new Res. Easy.

Most patches on Res aren't combinator based, I would imagine they will make lots of such patches, and if you want to have all the patches, shell out the money for the upgrade, it is so cheap right now. Else wait till 13 or whatever...

[MrFigg]

Got to upgrade if your want to use the new Res. Easy.

Most patches on Res aren't combinator based, I would imagine they will make lots of such patches, and if you want to have all the patches, shell out the money for the upgrade, it is so cheap right now. Else wait till 13 or whatever...

Yup.

[buddard]

If CMBv2 is made available for download from the shop then I guess it wouldn't be a problem for older versions but i would guess it's going to be an internal device specific to V12......

I can say with 99.999% certainty that the new combinator would not be a downloadable device, since it wouldn't be possible to implement it as a Rack Extension. It would have to be written as part of Reason itself like MIDI Out, the VST Plugin Device, the original Combinator, etc...

To make it appear in Reason 11 they would have to include it in a Reason 11 update, but why would they do that?
Apart from the obvious business reasons (less people would upgrade to R12), they would also have to make it backwards compatible with the low-res version of Reason, etc etc.

What I really do hope though is that they either make Combinator 2 a separate device, or make it possible to save patches in a backwards compatible format.

[Billy+]

What I really do hope though is that they either make Combinator 2 a separate device, or make it possible to save patches in a backwards compatible format.

Backwards compatibility would only work on patches that didn't take advantage of newer features, any patches using an extra button or knob or programmer function would completely fail to translate.

And I agree that CMBv2 is highly unlikely to be created as an RE and would have to be included in an update or not at all or someone would have probably developed one by now as there's been demand for 10 years.

[orthodox]

Backwards compatibility would only work on patches that didn't take advantage of newer features, any patches using an extra button or knob or programmer function would completely fail to translate.

This kind of compatibility will be broken sooner or later, as it literally forbids adding any new features.

[Billy+]

Backwards compatibility would only work on patches that didn't take advantage of newer features, any patches using an extra button or knob or programmer function would completely fail to translate.

This kind of compatibility will be broken sooner or later, as it literally forbids adding any new features.

I agree.

That's the reason for my initial question.

If new RE's are forced into using the new CMBv2 then these devices are no longer fully compatible with older version of Reason, and as such concerns me as someone who isn't sold on the V12 upgrade but would at least still like to continue to buy RE's after September.....

[QVprod]

Got to upgrade if your want to use the new Res. Easy.

Most patches on Res aren't combinator based, I would imagine they will make lots of such patches, and if you want to have all the patches, shell out the money for the upgrade, it is so cheap right now. Else wait till 13 or whatever...

I think this pretty much answers it unless you’re specifically buying REs for the few combinator patches included.

[Billy+]

Got to upgrade if your want to use the new Res. Easy.

Most patches on Res aren't combinator based, I would imagine they will make lots of such patches, and if you want to have all the patches, shell out the money for the upgrade, it is so cheap right now. Else wait till 13 or whatever...

I think this pretty much answers it unless you’re specifically buying REs for the few combinator patches included.

It's only cheap if you're running version 10 and take advantage of the cheap V11 with free V12 included, I'm running V11 and shelled out for the more expensive suite version. So until V12 is offered to V11 owners there isn't a cheap option.

[madmacman]

If new RE's are forced into using the new CMBv2 then these devices are no longer fully compatible with older version of Reason,

Sorry, that‘s nitpicking. As long as the RE doesn‘t require a certain SDK version it IS fully compatible with older versions of Reason. Which means: you can program to RE to its full extent. What is NOT compatible is some (!) additional content in form of combinators. Which is a minor annoyance. Some of my bought ReFills are also no longer compatible, because the included combinators require Line6. So what?

[Billy+]

If new RE's are forced into using the new CMBv2 then these devices are no longer fully compatible with older version of Reason,

Sorry, that‘s nitpicking. As long as the RE doesn‘t require a certain SDK version it IS fully compatible with older versions of Reason. Which means: you can program to RE to its full extent. What is NOT compatible is some (!) additional content in form of combinators. Which is a minor annoyance. Some of my bought ReFills are also no longer compatible, because the included combinators require Line6. So what?

I don't see it as nitpicking, the content is what you are paying for and should expect it to work so when there is the potential for it not to function as expected it's a valid question.

Even if RS decided that they would label every single device as R12 only that would be a solution, or saying that the devices include patches that required CMBv2 that would be a solution.

[nickb523]

Even if RS decided that they would label every single device as R12 only that would be a solution, or saying that the devices include patches that required CMBv2 that would be a solution.

I think developers will just state on the shop pages "Combinator patches require Reason V12 or an active Reason+ Subscription" (or something like that).

Similarly to an SDK update or ReFills for new devices you'll probably have a transition period of around 12 months or so. After that very few people will even consider it.

[QVprod]

I think this pretty much answers it unless you’re specifically buying REs for the few combinator patches included.

It's only cheap if you're running version 10 and take advantage of the cheap V11 with free V12 included, I'm running V11 and shelled out for the more expensive suite version. So until V12 is offered to V11 owners there isn't a cheap option.

I wasn’t referring to the cheap bit.... just chose not to delete that portion

[Billy+]

Even if RS decided that they would label every single device as R12 only that would be a solution, or saying that the devices include patches that required CMBv2 that would be a solution.

I think developers will just state on the shop pages "Combinator patches require Reason V12 or an active Reason+ Subscription" (or something like that).

Similarly to an SDK update or ReFills for new devices you'll probably have a transition period of around 12 months or so. After that very few people will even consider it.

That's perfectly acceptable however with the removal of CMBv1 won't that also impact patch creation from developers like yourself.

It makes sense that using new features would be better but what about simply patches that could be created and used in CMBv1 and would then also work with CMBv2, you would have to run two different installations of Reason to support a wider audience or risk sales as some content wouldn't work.

[joeyluck]

Billy, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

We all know you just want VST3 and VST MIDI Out support most of all

Did you end up buying Algoritm yet on sale? Even with it being one of the coolest of the more recent REs, you said before you wouldn't buy it or another RE until Reason includes the features you want...

So to think that you would be the one on the fence about buying a certain RE because of your access to a few of the included Combinator patches...?

If you think R12 is great and you upgrade, then you have nothing to worry about. And IMO, if you really like a RE and you are on R11 still and it includes some Combinator patches that you won't be able to use, I don't think that is a deciding factor and still nothing to worry about.

Now whether or not Reason Studios makes R12 a requirement if a RE contains patches using the new Combinator? I'm not sure... I'd say that wouldn't be the case, since some devs now include Combinator patches that utilize other REs from their and that doesn't prevent me from buying or using the RE. That is also a great example of how much affect it has. I already own REs that have Combinator patches I can't use. That said, I'm sure whatever made with the new Combinator is likely to be cool, so...

[MrFigg]

I think developers will just state on the shop pages "Combinator patches require Reason V12 or an active Reason+ Subscription" (or something like that).

Similarly to an SDK update or ReFills for new devices you'll probably have a transition period of around 12 months or so. After that very few people will even consider it.

That's perfectly acceptable however with the removal of CMBv1 won't that also impact patch creation from developers like yourself.

It makes sense that using new features would be better but what about simply patches that could be created and used in CMBv1 and would then also work with CMBv2, you would have to run two different installations of Reason to support a wider audience or risk sales as some content wouldn't work.

Because devs want to make their patches better which they will be able to do with combi2. And because people upgrade to use better/newer functions.
We’re talking about some patches included with a device which you won’t be able to use unless you’ve upgraded.
If you want to use the combi2 patches upgrade.
If you want an RE and haven’t upgraded you can still use the RE with all the other patches until you do finally upgrade. This is just going back and forth.
Again...what do you want? For RS to give you a free combi2? For RS to remove combi2 from R12? For devs not to make patches with combi2? For sound designers not to make refills using combi2? What do you want to happen?

[PhillipOrdonez]

Imagine a Maschine mkiii user demanding their unit to become standalone because the latest one is standalone and admitting that if they had an older version they would find it a good deal to upgrade but since they have the mkiii, the feature set isn't enticing, so they complain in the NI forums. Yet they want to have that very feature that they don't find enticing. They don't want to pay for it.

I'm on suite 11 and I want to upgrade and it is not because of some rack extension patches that use the new combinator. I want the new combinator and everything else. Get it yourself and enjoy your rack extension patches.

[Billy+]

That's perfectly acceptable however with the removal of CMBv1 won't that also impact patch creation from developers like yourself.

It makes sense that using new features would be better but what about simply patches that could be created and used in CMBv1 and would then also work with CMBv2, you would have to run two different installations of Reason to support a wider audience or risk sales as some content wouldn't work.

Because devs want to make their patches better which they will be able to do with combi2. And because people upgrade to use better/newer functions.
We’re talking about some patches included with a device which you won’t be able to use unless you’ve upgraded.
If you want to use the combi2 patches upgrade.
If you want an RE and haven’t upgraded you can still use the RE with all the other patches until you do finally upgrade. This is just going back and forth.
Again...what do you want? For RS to give you a free combi2? For RS to remove combi2 from R12? For devs not to make patches with combi2? For sound designers not to make refills using combi2? What do you want to happen?

For someone that's been on V10 forever your a little abrupt, I was only responding to nick as he is a developer and content creator. Besides not all patches are going to need to take advantage of the updated features of CMBv2 but creating them in CMBv2 would make them useless in V11 and below.

[Billy+]

Imagine a Maschine mkiii user demanding their unit to become standalone because the latest one is standalone and admitting that if they had an older version they would find it a good deal to upgrade but since they have the mkiii, the feature set isn't enticing, so they complain in the NI forums. Yet they want to have that very feature that they don't find enticing. They don't want to pay for it.

I'm on suite 11 and I want to upgrade and it is not because of some rack extension patches that use the new combinator. I want the new combinator and everything else. Get it yourself and enjoy your rack extension patches.

Well I guess that's what sets us apart.

I want to upgrade for features but the current features are not what I'm looking for.

CMBv2 could be useful but not what I happen to be looking for.
HiRes might be useful but again not what I'm looking for.
A new sampler could be fun but still not on my list at the moment....

So paying £130 for something that is not going to be of any real usefulness is really not looking viable, however I would still like the content that is provided as part of a purchase is fairly important to me.

[MrFigg]

For someone that's been on V10 forever your a little abrupt, I was only responding to nick as he is a developer and content creator. Besides not all patches are going to need to take advantage of the updated features of CMBv2 but creating them in CMBv2 would make them useless in V11 and below.

Me being on “v10 forever” is neither here nor there and not particularly relevant.
As far as creating patches are concerned in terms of sales that lies in the hands of the developers. They decide what they want in their products.
Personally I don’t buy devices for the included combis. I have bought refills which include patches which use REs I don’t have. I just use the patches I can and don’t bother about the other ones. Again that’s me.
But the whole v2 thing. If a dev makes a v2 patch then you can’t use it until you upgrade. That’s the reality. That’s not going to change.
And the same thing has been said over and over in this thread.

[joeyluck]

Because devs want to make their patches better which they will be able to do with combi2. And because people upgrade to use better/newer functions.
We’re talking about some patches included with a device which you won’t be able to use unless you’ve upgraded.
If you want to use the combi2 patches upgrade.
If you want an RE and haven’t upgraded you can still use the RE with all the other patches until you do finally upgrade. This is just going back and forth.
Again...what do you want? For RS to give you a free combi2? For RS to remove combi2 from R12? For devs not to make patches with combi2? For sound designers not to make refills using combi2? What do you want to happen?

For someone that's been on V10 forever your a little abrupt, I was only responding to nick as he is a developer and content creator. Besides not all patches are going to need to take advantage of the updated features of CMBv2 but creating them in CMBv2 would make them useless in V11 and below.

Sure designers may have to make a decision. If the original Combinator is not available in R12, and if there isn't a way to simply build and export a .cmb patch with the new that is compatible with the new Combinator, they can build .cmb patches in R11 or earlier.

Just like RE devs decide to use a newer SDK or not...

You're also asking if designers want to continue creating patches with a less feature rich, less powerful, much less customizable Combinator, and I'm not sure that will be a big desire over using the more exciting, new Combinator. ReFills struggle as it is. If I were to guess what would sell more—Combinator patches that customers can buy on any version of Reason, or Combinator patches that are more exciting and can feel like new devices themselves? I don't know the answer... But I want to guess the latter will do better though.

[nickb523]

That's perfectly acceptable however with the removal of CMBv1 won't that also impact patch creation from developers like yourself.

It makes sense that using new features would be better but what about simply patches that could be created and used in CMBv1 and would then also work with CMBv2, you would have to run two different installations of Reason to support a wider audience or risk sales as some content wouldn't work.

I simply look at it the same as a project for a new device. You have to weight up whether it makes business sense to jump to support new devices vs legacy devices - In the case of CombiV2 it's almost in the league of V6.5 and the introduction of Rack Extensions, it's a huge and positive change for the platform on the whole that almost everyone is going to want so it's a bit of a no brainer.

There are certain situations where legacy support is needed. For example I quite like the idea of updating all of my existing ReFills with CombiV2 patches, but if that goes ahead I'll obviously need to keep the legacy Combinator patches in place otherwise I'd break a working product for many people.

[Kategra]

But why couldn't original Combinator and CombiV2 coexist? ReasonSudios (Props ) have mutiple EQs, COMPs, so why not combinators?

[Billy+]

Well to be fair I was more interested in an answer from RS about what they are going to do about the potential pitfall for non V12 user.

but I happily engaged with questions posed to me out of politeness.

however I can see that those who have chosen to upgrade all be it somewhat blindly are over the moon with their decision but as someone who really is only interested in features that would be of use to me and currently don't see any reason for the upgrade other than device patches that won't work if I don't.

And joey your right on the money, they are the features I'm after, they are the features that my workflow could definitely be improved with and would make the upgrade worth buying and I still hold out hope that they will make the cut but if they don't that's fine I just won't buy it but would then be concerned with the patches for future RE's.

[Billy+]

That's perfectly acceptable however with the removal of CMBv1 won't that also impact patch creation from developers like yourself.

It makes sense that using new features would be better but what about simply patches that could be created and used in CMBv1 and would then also work with CMBv2, you would have to run two different installations of Reason to support a wider audience or risk sales as some content wouldn't work.

I simply look at it the same as a project for a new device. You have to weight up whether it makes business sense to jump to support new devices vs legacy devices - In the case of CombiV2 it's almost in the league of V6.5 and the introduction of Rack Extensions, it's a huge and positive change for the platform on the whole that almost everyone is going to want so it's a bit of a no brainer.

There are certain situations where legacy support is needed. For example I quite like the idea of updating all of my existing ReFills with CombiV2 patches, but if that goes ahead I'll obviously need to keep the legacy Combinator patches in place otherwise I'd break a working product for many people.

That's an interesting perspective.

Would you create in CMBv1 as standard if you could and if needed move to CMBv2 or are you happy to just drop v1 builds completely?