Mid/Side Mastering and how to get mind bending stereo width in Reason.

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sleeper0013
Posts: 18
Joined: 20 Feb 2015

29 Jun 2015

Just a quick shout out to those that attended my presentation at gearfest, As i promised here is a more complete description of the process i was describing and how it is achieved. 

I hear a lot of people complain about why they can't get the same massive sound from reason as other DAWs. Every one goes straight to the complaint about the lack of VST support.  I agree there are some great VSTs that can give you larger that life sound, and you can't use them in reason with out bottoming out your CPU. But that doesn't mean you can't get larger than life Masters out of reason. I have spent a lot of time picking apart Something Called Mid/Side mastering and I have built a version out of REs that will give you that Head engulfing stereo width.

First off ill share a little info about what this is.  You are basically Combining your left and right channels into a mono or mid and a Side channel. The Mid basically becomes mono, while the Side combine produces phase cancellation, but where the left and right have phase variance you will be left with a side signal that will account for your panning.  You then process these signals with Eq and Compression then Decode the process returning your Left and right channels. The benefits of this process is an incredibly large stereo scope with perceived depth of field, and your mix will translate beautifully into mono systems.

Encoding process is as this  MID = L + R, Side = L + (R inverted)
Where the Decoding process is as this  Left = M + S, Right = Mid + (Side inverted)

This is how its built.

First and most important - I'm using the Quadelectra Audioworx Stereo spliter which is built for Mid/side. There is a free one but this RE is important for 2 reasons. One you can solo your mid or your side. And you can add delay to your side Channel. Delay is important because when sound travels it doesn't reach each ear at the same time especially when coming from the Side. For the average head it takes .024 seconds to go from one ear to another.

Now your mid and sides then run into Separate EQs and compressors, Before being run back into the Stereo splitter.

What you need for this build is 2 digital EQs, 2 compressors(any slow compressor), and if your not using fet compressors 2 saturators will be necessary. I have built a version with all Stock REs as seen below.

Image 

This is what the MID routing looks like.

Image 
And The Side routing.

Image  

Your Mid EQ settings are going to be a Boost in the bottom range and cut in the Highs it looks like this.
Image 
Your Side EQ will have the low pass cut and a boost in the High range. THis drives a distinction between the Mid and Side signals when they are recombined.
Image 
The Compressors are a bit tricky.

For the Mid Comp you Want to turn off Side channel.  Input Gain for Mid and Side is the same At 0db, ratio is 1.4 to 1.6 depending on how busy your mix is. I find EDM is great at 1.6. You then Adjust your threshold for 1db of reduction. Attack is Slow i turned it down all the way. Release for Mid and Side will match at 250 to 350, you want these to be the same. To set output gain you bypass the compressor and listen, when you turn on your compressor there should be no boost or reduction, the gain should be exactly the same.
Image 
For the Side Comp you turn off your mid channel.
Ratio 1.2 to 1.3 depending on style rock seems nice up at 1.3 where EDM is nice at 1.2. Adjust threshold for 1db reduction. Attack for the side is faster i have it set at 70ms. bypass and listen when you turn on your compressor you want to have slight boost to the signal over your input gain. I usually do 3db to 4db increase.
Image 
Last is saturation. If your using Softubes FET you don't need this, but seeing as this is a stock build this is what about what it should look like. Mid should be neutral with subtle saturation efffect. Saide should be High and subtle as well.  
Image 
From here you out put from the Splitter to a line mixer hard panned.
Out from line mixer into another compressor, i use a faster attack release here as your mid and side did all of the slow work. 1db of reduction.
An Audiomatic for color EDM is great with subtle bottom end.
And last your limiter, raise input gain until you get 1db of reduction. if you have done your mix properly you should have left your self around -4db peak in headroom. you should be making this up now with your input gain. Fast attack, Slow release. raise output gain to get 1db of clip. Soft clip on and adjust until clip goes away.
Image 

Now one last bit of info. Pre mid side your using an EQ and if you choose 4 band Compression. You should have a compressor here regardless. but now you are reducing the DB reduction because of the mid/side and the final compressor. I usually put my mid/side in its own combinator so i can do bypass tests during mixing. 

Image 
You can experiment with replacing these modules with other RE versions. i have had some pretty nice results except with the replacing the EQs with Softubes tridents for some reason they squashed the signal into mono, i found its just better to say with digital EQs. IF you use a FET compressors you don't need the saturators as they will automatically add saturation.

IF you follow this guide line you have effectively created something comparable to Ozone 5 or 6. Except customizable, and capable of running(if you have a fast system) while you are running your mixing deck. for the reason i dont use mastering EQ i just do run separate buses for each instrument and do cuts and boost here.
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sleeper0013
Posts: 18
Joined: 20 Feb 2015

29 Jun 2015

If admins woudn't mind tacking this topic the folks at propellerhead would greatly appreciate it.

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SoulState
Posts: 308
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29 Jun 2015

Thanks for taking the time to post this Sleeper!  Any chance of you attaching the Reason file.  Would make things a lot easier to study.

Cheers
C
:reason:

sleeper0013
Posts: 18
Joined: 20 Feb 2015

29 Jun 2015

There you go.




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SoulState
Posts: 308
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29 Jun 2015

Got it.  ...thanks.

Loaded it into Reason.  Just missing the Quadelectra Stereo splitter RE... soon fix that at the Prop shop  ;)
:reason:

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orthodox
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29 Jun 2015

SoulState wrote:Just missing the Quadelectra Stereo splitter RE...
you could replace it with RE-181: https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/ ... converter/


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SoulState
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29 Jun 2015

SoulState wrote:Just missing the Quadelectra Stereo splitter RE...
orthodox wrote:you could replace it with RE-181:
https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/ ... converter/
orthodox wrote:  
Thanks.
But I've splashed the ca$h.  Anyways the Quadelectra's got a few more features e.g stereo to mono check, phase meter.

C
:reason:

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Lunesis
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29 Jun 2015

sleeper0013 wrote:If admins woudn't mind tacking this topic the folks at propellerhead would greatly appreciate it.
Much as I would love to the tacks are for generalized FAQ type threads and free tut lists hosted by other dedicated sites, and I've already got five (which is already pushing it) so if I put a singular topic up there then it might open the floodgates to having a whole page of stickies.

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TheGodOfRainbows
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30 Jun 2015

OP melted my brain. I'm a musician, not a scientist! But seriously, this is fascinating stuff that I know very little about. Great post and thanks for the song file! I will study this.

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SoulState
Posts: 308
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30 Jun 2015

TheGodOfRainbows wrote:OP melted my brain. I'm a musician, not a scientist!.
haha
That's why I nudged the OP for the file upload.  Oh, and because I'm a lazy ....... :D
:reason:

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selig
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30 Jun 2015

sleeper0013 wrote:…Delay is important because when sound travels it doesn't reach each ear at the same time especially when coming from the Side. For the average head it takes .024 seconds to go from one ear to another.
A bit of a typo there: 24 ms is a HUGE delay for a 6-7 inch distance - did you mean to say 0.024 MS rather than seconds?

Also worth noting, adding sides to achieve width also reduces the mid signal, and means that the center elements such as bass and kick (and vocals) are reduced. If these items are important to your mix you should be careful when "pushing" this type of effect on entire mixes, IMO of course!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

sleeper0013
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07 Jul 2015

Ok i discovered this while flutter panning my high hats, they were being completely squashed to the center. it seems Using delay on the side channel will smear your panning. shut off the delay. Also i found that if you reduce gain of the mid while boosting the side on the compressors you clear up the smear on panning as well. both compressor are set to the same ratio. i'm also allowing for around 3db compression on the mid. there is a phase variance that is not being carried over to the mid channel for some reason with the delay on. this is a flaw with the stereo splitter. unfortunately the delay isn't worth loosing your pan. The only way to fix this is to produce a filter that would sync phase variance with the delay.

sleeper0013
Posts: 18
Joined: 20 Feb 2015

07 Jul 2015

ya it was .024 MS

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selig
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07 Jul 2015

What was your original intent with adding the delay? With Mid/Side processing your original stereo image is potentially lost with any processing.

For example, take a stereo source with something panned hard to one side. Reduce the side signal and you get mono (less width). Reduce the Mid signal and you also get mono! On some M/S processors, removing the Mid signal leaves you with the Side signal on one side and the inverted Side signal on the other - convert to mono and you get NOTHING. Additionally, this approach removes all panning information - anything panned to one side or the other now appears in the same place. Meaning, the stereo image is "destroyed".

Most would assume removing the Mid signal would leave you with the stuff on the left still on the left, and the stuff on the right still on the right. But since the Mid and Side signal are both mono themselves, that's impossible. The ONLY way to get the stuff on the left to stay on the left is to use equal amounts of Mid and Side signal (that's how it works, after all). So the more you make changes (EQ, compression, level) to these signals, the more you mess with the stereo image.

Using compression causes the most change, since the amount of change is dynamic - meaning the stereo image changes directly with level/compression. For example, compressing the side signal makes the end result "mono" when compression is active, since you are reducing the gain of the Side signal with compression. Probably not what was intended in most cases. The audible result with any compression of the Mid or Side only is the stereo image "dances" back and forth from the edges to the center. At no point is it possible to get the side signal to appear any further to the side, at least in all my experiments over the years!

The one example where M/S processing can sometimes appear to widen a signal is when you start with a mono or "pseudo stereo" signal (like a synth with a "wide" knob like Antidote and others). This is not "stereo", since the term "stereo" is very strictly defined.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereophonic_sound
And it is NOT mono compatible, since a full Side signal will TOTALLY disappear in mono.

Hope this hasn't added to the confusion here, just wanting to give some background on what's behind the Mid/Side process.
[EDIT: like a recent post of mine, since the forum migration some pic links have been lost - looks like that happened to yours as well. Might want to update the first post in this thread to restore the lost images!]

:)
Selig Audio, LLC

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selig
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07 Jul 2015

Oh, and before I forget, here's how to do the M/S encode/decode in a single Thor device rather than using one for each.
Input 1/2 are the main Stereo Inputs.
Output 1 is Mid, Output 2 is Side.
Input 3 is Mid Decode, Input 4 is Side Decode.
Output 3/4 is the final Stereo output.

For simple adjustments of Mid/Side levels, patch output 1/2 to input 3/4. Use Rotary 1 & 2 to control the levels of Mid and Side respectively.
Get it here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cafqt9k5urrjl ... r.zip?dl=0
Selig Audio, LLC

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selig
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07 Jul 2015

OK, finally getting around to looking deeper at this - not sure the front panel controls are hooked to anything: which compressor(s) are they supposed to be controlling? Why no control for Mid and Side levels?

Also, this makes stereo sources more mono, which I'm guessing isn't intended. Mainly it makes things louder (adding 5 dB), which of course sounds better - but there are easier ways of doing this! Processes like this shouldn't add gain IMO.

Even on synths I'm not hearing any widening that I can perceive. What are you typically running through this to achieve the "mind bending stereo width" you speak of?
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

sleeper0013
Posts: 18
Joined: 20 Feb 2015

03 Aug 2015

OK sorry for taking so long to respond been on the road a lot lately.

The delay is to account for the delay that it takes for sound to travel from one ear to the other. and i have resolved the issues i was having by compressing the mid up to 3 db of reduction while increasing the output gain of the Side until panning returns. the boost is to maintain the phase cancellation with the added delay. you will notice if you solo mid or side they drop into mono. its the standing phase in the recombination that produces left and right channels again, if the signals get to far apart then they loose coherence, but a boost in gain will recapture that, also smoothing out the panning much the way diffusion does as sound bounces off a wall. if you play with the output gain of the side channel while the entire process is turned on you will see what i'm talking about. now i see why it was suggested that i use the bottom end setting with the retro after the mid/side process. its to restore the level of the bottom end to a unity with side with out negating the mid side phase differential. adjust transform on the retro to about 42% to better target the bottom end.

sleeper0013
Posts: 18
Joined: 20 Feb 2015

03 Aug 2015

By the way i Will will be sharing some Parallel processing techniques soon. these Techniques will help create deep clear and clean reverb when used with mid/side. to this end i generaly get a nice unity mix with master turned off, then kick it on and mix my reverb into the master. these parallel techniques will also give you the ability to put your reverb where you want it with out muddying up your original sound. there are some boost techniques also that i use also that are a total reinvention of the mixing wheel as well.

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Tincture
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04 Aug 2015

After much experimentation I haven't found much use for mid/side processing. It can be a minefield. These days if I want more side info I increase my panning.

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Catblack
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27 Nov 2016

I'd love to see what the pictures were from this post!
If you ain't hip to the rare Housequake, shut up already.

Damn.

HoktoNorthStar
Posts: 1
Joined: 29 Nov 2016

29 Nov 2016

Hi is this patch available for reason 4 at all or is it only 5 and above?

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