expanse vs europa

[chaosroyale]

Of course context is king, but OP has already given the context -
limited budget
specifically needs a modern wavetable synth, already has plenty of other synths and sounds
likes to delve deep

When I said Europa is "lite", I agree that was a little unfair. It's a really good synth, and Europa's envelope section is the best I've ever seen in terms of power vs usability. But overall, it's not on the level of a "hypersynth". By OP's criteria, eXpanse will give more bang for the buck.

More generally, if -like me- you love Reasons crazy modularity (you surely do, because otherwise there's better DAWs for straightforward recording or MIDI) then a new synth with only 4 CV inputs is very disappointing. Just look at the back of eXpanse - that's what it should look like.

[bjmatt]

it's not on the level of a "hypersynth".

Please don't take this as nitpicking, but i'm not sure what "hypersynth" means. More wavetables, filter types, built-in effects?

With Europa i have like 50 built-in wavetables to choose from, i can draw my own ones, tweak and modulate them 'til death with 2 modifiers and the spectral filter and add unison voices per engine. I have 3 of these chains which already means a _lot_ of design possibilites. As far as modulations go, one dedicated adsr amp envelope, 4 custom very userfriendly and fast multistage envelopes which can be used as lfo's too, and 3 "regular" lfos. All of them behave very nicely and musical even when running at 50hz. There is only one regular filter, which has less filter types, but in my opinion it does the things i'm expecting from a filter really well: sounds good, does self oscillation and can be overdriven.

Sure, it can't import wavetables, but frankly i don't miss them as far as i have good built-ins. But i would choose a unique additive stage (the spectral filters) over more serum/massive tables anytime.

Having only 4 external modulation input is a bit unusual for a built-in device, i agree, nothing's perfect.

[electrofux]

There is a sound difference between both. But since i am a preset guy i cannot get in to the depths. And what i think from my testing at the weekend is that the patches in Europa are conentrating too much on weirdness. I have found alot of patches that are too resonant for my ears in the higher notes but on the other hand i found alot of sounds that are very good at the lower end. I am also not sure about the reverb but that might just be because of the patches. Resonant stuff just doesnt sound that good with reverb. At least i had to tweak the reverb alot or put it at the end of the chain rather than in front.
I am not sure if the differences are big enough to make me buy both. I also have Antidote with alot of patches and it already covers up alot of modern pristine sounds especially pads. I dont think i need either Europa or Expanse for pads really.
What i am currently hooked up with though is VK-2... that Filter

but whatever you do dont pull out Serum. I did compare both to the Serum demo and what can i say, Serum sounds just a league better imho - more powerful more punchy. But having said that, i wouldnt buy it even if it was on sale because it eats up CPU like crazy and i have a new PC.

[Pralijah]

Expanse
+ €59 extra low price. Can also be included in the €9 RE €400 value subscription (Expanse counted as €149 value).
+ More preset patches
+ Dark GUI can be handy for the eye when using a darker theme i Reason.
+ A lot more CV connections than Europe.
+ Good effect section with benefit of having "audio in" (can use fx section for other audiotracks)
- Takes more CPU (although you have CPU adjustments on the back if that helps, or get used to "bounce to track")

Europa
+ - Only available as part of the Reason 10 upgrade for €129. Good if one wants Grain and the 3 instrument selections.
+ Lower CPU usage
+ Intuitive UI. (+ -) The very red color of the GUI gives it character but may also be harder on the eye.
+ - Good effect section but no "audio in" (fx can´t be used for external, but Grain has same fx and loads samples if that helps)
- Fewer preset patches (but will probably become more later on).


Any more imortant things to mention?

[dancing fool]

There is a sound difference between both. But since i am a preset guy i cannot get in to the depths. And what i think from my testing at the weekend is that the patches in Europa are conentrating too much on weirdness. I have found alot of patches that are too resonant for my ears in the higher notes but on the other hand i found alot of sounds that are very good at the lower end. I am also not sure about the reverb but that might just be because of the patches. Resonant stuff just doesnt sound that good with reverb. At least i had to tweak the reverb alot or put it at the end of the chain rather than in front.
I am not sure if the differences are big enough to make me buy both. I also have Antidote with alot of patches and it already covers up alot of modern pristine sounds especially pads. I dont think i need either Europa or Expanse for pads really.
What i am currently hooked up with though is VK-2... that Filter

but whatever you do dont pull out Serum. I did compare both to the Serum demo and what can i say, Serum sounds just a league better imho - more powerful more punchy. But having said that, i wouldnt buy it even if it was on sale because it eats up CPU like crazy and i have a new PC.

I won't buy serum becaurse it's vst. And although i do have vst's, i'm not planning on buying new ones.
I skipt from cubase to reason 4 years ago (while i was using cubase for 15 years) Reason has more the workflow that fits me (although cubase midi editor is way better) But reason is live better. And ableton's gui i don't like at all. but i'm getting out of topic.
For me it's a butget thing. Europa (envelopes, spectral fliter)has things that suits me better than Expanse (more waves, filter types, cv inputs)and vs.
They sound (quality) both good enough for me.
I think for now Expanse, next year reason 10

[dancing fool]

i did try them both today side by side.
And it is a hard decision.
Europa's evelopes are (for me) better/easyer to use and have multy stages. Also the mod matrix with 8 europa instead of 6 in expanse. in europa there is a scale (like thor) in expanse you can do that with mod matrix row destination amounth. Expanse more waveforms more waveform modulation types. additive harmonics.
The CPU weight could be a thing. In a song with more than 3 expanse's and some drum effects and other synths, i don't think my laptop will take that.

[eXode]

Just clarifying a few points that seem to have gone missed.

In Expanse you select scales from the source, so you don't really have to use the matrix row destination amount in most cases. Take LFO1 as an example (from Mod Matrix, Modulation Sources list):

LFO1 (not scaled)
LFO1 Scaled - based on the scale setting in the LFO1 section
LFO1*Mod Wheel - LFO1 scaled by Mod Wheel
LFO1*Aftertouch - LFO1 scaled by Aftertouch
LFO1*Velocity - LFO1 scaled by Velocity

The scale settings on each EG and LFO offers more possible scales such as the envelopes, the CC sequencer, and random.

The matrix only has 6 slots, but each slot has 3 destinations, on top of that each LFO has 4 unique targets which saves time for doing simpler tasks like vibrato or PWM on oscillators 1 and 2.

Every envelope in Expanse 3.0 has a multi stage Editor mode. Double click to add a point, double click a point to remove it. Click drag between points to change the curve. You can also use ctrl/cmd+shift+drag on a point to have it snap to 16th steps.

There's also the alt+click menu that lets you copy/paste EGs as well as select various presets. Alt+click also works on the different oscillator display pages.

[Blamsoft]

I just want to insert something in here because it was decided not to clutter the video with this info. The envelope editor would not be very powerful without this. The operation is:

- Double click to add or remove points
- Drag the segments to adjust the curve
- Drag the sustain point to the desired stage
- Shift drag to snap to a time in sixteenth notes
- Alt+shift drag to snap to a time in triplets
- Ctrl/Cmd drag to snap to a level
- You can snap to both a time and level using both Shift and Ctrl/Cmd
- Shift drag on a curve adjusts the two adjacent points up and down
- There are presets in an Alt click menu

Okay, that is all.

[Oquasec]

I'd say europa is a cross between sylenth and a light version of expanse.
Certainly not the same as expanse by a long shot and definitely no serum, it still has a modern sound.

[JacobiusWrex]

I got zero and expanse instead of 10 (for now) and I was super pumped about Europa while beta testing it .. But holy smokes expanse is amazing I am soo happy with it. Just scrolling through presets and riffing is so inspiring


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Reasonable man]

I have tried to get into wavetable synthesis. Unfortunatley it is mostly prominent in the kind of modern 'music' i despise on a molecular level. I put the word music in inverted comas for a reason... it's mostly just BIG sound and sweet f all else and the type of big sound that is so pointless and tiresome after a few minutes.
I'm gonna check out Europa and leave Expanse/Serum for which will probably end up being..... never. I think Wavetable synthesis can be handy for someonelike me for layering from time to time. But in general it does absoutley nothing for me.

[EdGrip]

Those idiots, dancing the night away, having a lovely time. If only someone could make them understand how pointless the music they're dancing to is! That'd wipe the smiles off their stupid faces, oh yes!

As a friend of ours, a vocalist in a pub covers band, once memorably informed us as we listened to some Daft Punk at a house party - "It's just a beat! It's literally just a beat. And then they stop one beat, and they start another one! If you guys were musicians you'd know how EASY it is to make." He was so angry. Bless.

[electrofux]

The biggest (and to me only) downside in Europa imho is the Reverb. What do you guys think of it? I cant say i find it silky smooth. FX nowadays do make up alot of why Synths sound so flashy. Take Antidote which has a superb Reverb (which contributes alot to cpu consumption too) and it still sounds very modern -not saying that reverb is all but it makes patches shine. Expanse has a much better reverb as does Serum. You wonder why the Pluck Sounds sound so amazing on Serum? Most of the time it has alot to do with Reverb.

On the other hand you can easily replace a reverb. We have some good reverbs in reason. You just need to know when scanning the presets.

[bjmatt]

I have tried to get into wavetable synthesis. Unfortunatley it is mostly prominent in the kind of modern 'music' i despise on a molecular level.

I understand you absolutely, but wavetable synths do so much more than todays shitty and boring dubstep clichés. They've been used to their full extent on many Tangerine Dream, Astral Projection, Crystal Method, Ulrich Schnauss tracks. Just like FM. I'm happy that these things have their renaissance lately, don't really care if it's because of a genre i don't like.

[dancing fool]

I have tried to get into wavetable synthesis. Unfortunatley it is mostly prominent in the kind of modern 'music' i despise on a molecular level.

I understand you absolutely, but wavetable synths do so much more than todays shitty and boring dubstep clichés. They've been used to their full extent on many Tangerine Dream, Astral Projection, Crystal Method, Ulrich Schnauss tracks. Just like FM. I'm happy that these things have their renaissance lately, don't really care if it's because of a genre i don't like.

This is one of the things why that i love of wavetable. All the movement.

[dancing fool]

Just did notice that the envelopes in europa in loop mode with keytrig off acts like an free running lfo.
In Expanse i can't do that? Is it always sync. to the key trigger?

[Emian]

Of course context is king, but OP has already given the context -
limited budget
specifically needs a modern wavetable synth, already has plenty of other synths and sounds
likes to delve deep

When I said Europa is "lite", I agree that was a little unfair. It's a really good synth, and Europa's envelope section is the best I've ever seen in terms of power vs usability. But overall, it's not on the level of a "hypersynth". By OP's criteria, eXpanse will give more bang for the buck.

More generally, if -like me- you love Reasons crazy modularity (you surely do, because otherwise there's better DAWs for straightforward recording or MIDI) then a new synth with only 4 CV inputs is very disappointing. Just look at the back of eXpanse - that's what it should look like.

THIS !

Expanse has the sexiest ass of all Synths available for Reason !

the Shape/Expanse combo is godlike !

[eXode]

Just did notice that the envelopes in europa in loop mode with keytrig off acts like an free running lfo.
In Expanse i can't do that? Is it always sync. to the key trigger?

In Expanse you go to the LOOP section of the envelope and set the mode to LFO or one of the beat sync mode (i.e. 4/4, etc).

[dancing fool]

Just did notice that the envelopes in europa in loop mode with keytrig off acts like an free running lfo.
In Expanse i can't do that? Is it always sync. to the key trigger?

In Expanse you go to the LOOP section of the envelope and set the mode to LFO or one of the beat sync mode (i.e. 4/4, etc).

I try that but it still needs a key trigger to activate, it is not free running (no trigger needed)

[dancing fool]

by the way, i did purchase expanse today.
Reason 10 has to wait.

[eXode]

In Expanse you go to the LOOP section of the envelope and set the mode to LFO or one of the beat sync mode (i.e. 4/4, etc).

I try that but it still needs a key trigger to activate, it is not free running (no trigger needed)

Not sure what you mean, free running means that it doesn't retrigger on key start, which is true for the LFO mode. Sounds to me that you are talking about some sort of "auto run" feature.

[dancing fool]

I try that but it still needs a key trigger to activate, it is not free running (no trigger needed)

Not sure what you mean, free running means that it doesn't retrigger on key start, which is true for the LFO mode. Sounds to me that you are talking about some sort of "auto run" feature.

You can call it auto run. In europa it runs all the time. In expanse it needs a keytrigger to run.

[eXode]

Not sure what you mean, free running means that it doesn't retrigger on key start, which is true for the LFO mode. Sounds to me that you are talking about some sort of "auto run" feature.

You can call it auto run. In europa it runs all the time. In expanse it needs a keytrigger to run.

Maybe you can post an Europa patch with that feature enabled?

[selig]

You can call it auto run. In europa it runs all the time. In expanse it needs a keytrigger to run.

Maybe you can post an Europa patch with that feature enabled?

You can see this with the Init Patch in Europa. Just drag it into the rack and notice the Envelope position constantly scanning/moving. I'm guessing this is what is being described?
If you assign Env1 to a CV output and patch to another device (such as Pulsar, which also doesn't need a key trig to run), you'll see it's active.

Don't know how this compares to Expanse, just noting how it works with Europa.

[dancing fool]

Maybe you can post an Europa patch with that feature enabled?

You can see this with the Init Patch in Europa. Just drag it into the rack and notice the Envelope position constantly scanning/moving. I'm guessing this is what is being described?
If you assign Env1 to a CV output and patch to another device (such as Pulsar, which also doesn't need a key trig to run), you'll see it's active.

Don't know how this compares to Expanse, just noting how it works with Europa.

That's exactly what i mean.
Reset device. and you can see evelope 1 is running/moving.