Is Skeuomorphism Reason's Achilles Heel?

[strange_scenery]

To be fair, not the same, but you can see where a cable is routed by hovering the mouse over a device's input or output. You can also route cables by right clicking the input/output of any device. It's an easy feature to miss though.

Interesting, did not know that!

[Carly(Poohbear)]

Also, since the rack is essentially one dimensional (up/down)

there is left and right as well which helps a lot...

Bit of Wiring more (Large).jpg (658.6 KiB) Viewed 3040 times

[PhillipOrdonez]

To be fair, not the same, but you can see where a cable is routed by hovering the mouse over a device's input or output. You can also route cables by right clicking the input/output of any device. It's an easy feature to miss though.

Interesting, did not know that!

And You can quickly go to the connected device by right clicking and selecting "scroll to connected device". Super helpful when there's clutter.

[integerpoet]

I don't think the rack hardware sim is limiting me in any way at all it's my imagination that is my limit

This sentiment is too rare here.

Who's finishing more good tracks and why? Are tools really the biggest factor?

I might be atypical for this forum in that while I enjoy process I more highly prize results.

In fact, a big part of what I enjoy about the process is anticipating the results.

I can see how a pro orchestrator or soundtrack creator might be in a position to chafe at workflow limitations.

But that ain't me. My head and heart are the bottlenecks.

[guitfnky]

Who's finishing more good tracks and why? Are tools really the biggest factor?

I might be atypical for this forum in that while I enjoy process I more highly prize results.

as someone who finishes plenty of good tracks, tools are never the biggest factor to *finishing*. focus and willpower get songs done.

but, when you’re talking about how quickly and painlessly you can finish a song, tools are huge.

give a carpenter who knows what they’re doing some wood, a hammer, and some nails, and they can build something just as high quality as if you give them a nail-gun instead, but that doesn’t mean they won’t be frustrated along the way.

[integerpoet]

as someone who finishes plenty of good tracks, tools are never the biggest factor to *finishing*. focus and willpower get songs done.
but, when you’re talking about how quickly and painlessly you can finish a song, tools are huge.
give a carpenter who knows what they’re doing some wood, a hammer, and some nails, and they can build something just as high quality as if you give them a nail-gun instead, but that doesn’t mean they won’t be frustrated along the way.

I guess I consider my head and heart to be so far and away my biggest limits that discussions of tools getting in the way just don't register. I mean, obviously I picked Reason over all the others, so I'm not entirely insensitive to tools issues. But, having picked Reason, I feel like my limits are almost entirely mine to own.

[groggy1]

I like the Skeumorphism personally - it actually helps me learn new reason devices quicker, because I know the paradigm.

But, it may be Reason's Achilles heel in a different way - It's probably boxed in the Reason development team, since if they did have an idea that may be BETTER than current design, they have to ask themselves whether breaking the "model" is acceptable.

E.g. when the mixer channels became "wireless", I can only imagine the debates they had internally.

[guitfnky]

as someone who finishes plenty of good tracks, tools are never the biggest factor to *finishing*. focus and willpower get songs done.
but, when you’re talking about how quickly and painlessly you can finish a song, tools are huge.
give a carpenter who knows what they’re doing some wood, a hammer, and some nails, and they can build something just as high quality as if you give them a nail-gun instead, but that doesn’t mean they won’t be frustrated along the way.

I guess I consider my head and heart to be so far and away my biggest limits that discussions of tools getting in the way just don't register. I mean, obviously I picked Reason over all the others, so I'm not entirely insensitive to tools issues. But, having picked Reason, I feel like my limits are almost entirely mine to own.

I agree—I just don’t see it as a limitation in the sense that it prevents you from achieving what you’re after, it’s more a limitation of how efficiently/quickly you’re able to get there. if it takes me 50% longer to do something in Reason than it does in most other DAWs, that’s a lot of extra time that could be spent doing something else. and some things just aren’t possible in Reason at all—dropping a series of markers as you listen, to know where you need to go back and address something, for instance. kind of crazy that I have to bust out a pen and paper to jot down time stamps to keep track of that stuff in a DAW, in 2021.

that’s not to say I don’t love Reason—I’ve used it almost exclusively for more than 10 years now, and there’s a reason I’ve stuck with it. it’s still super-inspiring to use, and fun. I’ve just (finally) gotten to the point where the lack of fundamental functionality is starting to wear thin.

[jam-s]

I'm all for skeumorphism and having the rack/hardware metaphor standing strong. Thus I really hope for them to finally include virtual MIDI cables as well. Also I don't think it's a real limitation as they could always include a rack mount PC (with a ton of audio and CV connectors on its backside) in the rack that could then switch to a completely different routing screen (much like the mixer has its dedicated view). On that screen they could basically do whatever kind of GUI depending on which "programm/plugin" you'd load in that virtual rack PC.

[fieldframe]

The biggest problem with the rack metaphor is the cables.

The fact that stereo connections must always be made one cable at a time*, and that reordering devices requires four actions (move L from source, move R from source, reconnect L to destination, reconnect R to destination) is a workflow killer. In something like Ableton Live, that's a single click: You just drag the device somewhere else in the chain, and it's done.

Sure, Reason's cables allow more creative routing possibilities, but that doesn't mean you can't have shortcuts, defaults, and automation. This is software, after all.

*This is one instance where it would actually be better if the rack metaphor were more realistic. If I'm moving stereo quarter-inch plugs around in real life, I'll often grasp both L and R with one hand and move them together like that. At bare minimum, there should be a keyboard modifier to move a cable's stereo pair simultaneously – really, it should be a keyboard modifier to move them separately as 99% of the time, you want to move them together.

[Jagwah]

The fact that you have to connect cables is not what bothers me, the problem is that it adds unneeded steps to connect things since you have to flip the rack around and then back, and that when you are using the rack you can't see the connections. Also, since the rack is essentially one dimensional (up/down), the cables inevitably overlap each other and then it becomes difficult to see what is connected to what. Different colored cables would help but still not fundamentally solve the problem. Even if you stay in the analog world, compare that with guitar pedals laid out on the floor, where you can arrange the pedals out in two dimensions so there is less cable overlapping and you can always see the connections.

They took the need for these steps out a few upgrades ago. You just drag and drop devices where you want them, and hold shift to re-arrange them and everything is auto routed. The only time I flip to the back is for more intricate cabling which is perfect really.

Like someone mentioned you can hover over an input / output to get a reading of what it is connected to, you can also select an option to 'hide' cables which makes them very transparent so you can still see them but see through them.

If you really want something like your guitar pedal analogy, then go with FL Studio or something that has a map menu like it. We are far too late into the game to make an overhaul here and I honestly do not see very much of a problem at all.

[Carly(Poohbear)]

The biggest problem with the rack metaphor is the cables.

The fact that stereo connections must always be made one cable at a time*, and that reordering devices requires four actions (move L from source, move R from source, reconnect L to destination, reconnect R to destination) is a workflow killer.

For a stereo pair the quickest way to move them is to just disconnect the Right cable and the move the left, the right cable is auto routed with it.

[mcatalao]

The fact that you have to connect cables is not what bothers me, the problem is that it adds unneeded steps to connect things since you have to flip the rack around and then back, and that when you are using the rack you can't see the connections. Also, since the rack is essentially one dimensional (up/down), the cables inevitably overlap each other and then it becomes difficult to see what is connected to what. Different colored cables would help but still not fundamentally solve the problem. Even if you stay in the analog world, compare that with guitar pedals laid out on the floor, where you can arrange the pedals out in two dimensions so there is less cable overlapping and you can always see the connections.

First... You just need to hit tab. It's not even a thing.

It seems to me that you're still using reason as if we were in R1. You know you can reduce cable klutter, rearrange racks, place them side by side, or put everything inside a combinator. Also if you were in analogue world you wouldn't put a tube tech comp, a tlaudio and a maselec near to a dx7, right on on the floor right? Tbh if your racks are messy, that's because you are messy, and you also can be messy in a top down layout.

[mcatalao]

The biggest problem with the rack metaphor is the cables.

The fact that stereo connections must always be made one cable at a time*, and that reordering devices requires four actions (move L from source, move R from source, reconnect L to destination, reconnect R to destination) is a workflow killer.

For a stereo pair the quickest way to move them is to just disconnect the Right cable and the move the left, the right cable is auto routed with it.

It goes deeper. Rearranging devices changes routing automatically if you press shift. Just check the automatic routing section of the manual.

If these guys read the freaking manual they'd complain half and work twicest fast.

[Carly(Poohbear)]

For a stereo pair the quickest way to move them is to just disconnect the Right cable and the move the left, the right cable is auto routed with it.

It goes deeper. Rearranging devices changes routing automatically if you press shift. Just check the automatic routing section of the manual.

If these guys read the freaking manual they'd complain half and work twicest fast.

I know that one and unbelievably there has just been a click bait video made about it as well... DOH!!
For me there are many times I'm not doing a simple re-ordering of devices.

[guitfnky]

connecting cables is in theory no different than setting up routing in any other DAW—you just do it using virtual cables instead of menus/some other method. the benefits are that it can be much more intuitive to visualize and understand signal flow. the downside is that it quickly lends itself to becoming visual spaghetti. this last bit is where Reason could stand a bit of an overhaul. shift dragging can be great, but there are still lots of areas where cabling workflow could be improved, both functionally and visually. hopefully they're taking the opportunity the high-res update gives them to address some of the cabling deficiencies.

[EnochLight]

If these guys read the freaking manual they'd complain half and work twicest fast.

+100. In seeing a lot of things posted that really harken back to RTFM. But that’s just the old geezer in me lashing out.

[esselfortium]

The biggest problem with the rack metaphor is the cables.

The fact that stereo connections must always be made one cable at a time*, and that reordering devices requires four actions (move L from source, move R from source, reconnect L to destination, reconnect R to destination) is a workflow killer. In something like Ableton Live, that's a single click: You just drag the device somewhere else in the chain, and it's done.

If you hold shift when moving a device, it'll auto-route to the new order. This ought to be default behavior or at least made much more discoverable. It's been in since Reason 1.0 and so few of us know it exists!

[guitfnky]

If these guys read the freaking manual they'd complain half and work twicest fast.

+100. In seeing a lot of things posted that really harken back to RTFM. But that’s just the old geezer in me lashing out.

here's the thing though...if some relatively simple functionality requires you to RTFM in order to know how to use it, that points to something in the UI that should be improved.

something as simple as a little hovering pop-up note that tells you a helpful shortcut would do wonders, for something like this. something so simple shouldn't require you to pull up the manual--in any DAW--not in 2021.

I do agree generally with 'RTFM', but it's insane to expect anyone to read a 1500 page manual and remember every little shortcut along the way.

[selig]

If you hold shift when moving a device, it'll auto-route to the new order. This ought to be default behavior or at least made much more discoverable. It's been in since Reason 1.0 and so few of us know it exists!

Part of the problem for me is the lack of consistency with regards to adding the shift key in the rack. If you drag a module into the rack with shift, then no cables are connected. But if you drag a module in the rack with the shift, cables are connected!

[Carly(Poohbear)]

I do agree generally with 'RTFM', but it's insane to expect anyone to read a 1500 page manual and remember every little shortcut along the way.

That's why there is a small 10 page shortcut manual of which 5 pages are a must to know...

https://a.phcdn.se/Reason11/Manuals/Rea ... mmands.pdf

[guitfnky]

I do agree generally with 'RTFM', but it's insane to expect anyone to read a 1500 page manual and remember every little shortcut along the way.

That's why there is a small 10 page shortcut manual of which 5 pages are a must to know...

https://a.phcdn.se/Reason11/Manuals/Rea ... mmands.pdf

I agree, this is super-helpful--and important--but this particular case actually also illustrates my point.

nowhere in that guide is there a section for Rack shortcuts. so if someone's in the middle of a project and just wants to quickly look up a shortcut to see whether there's a quicker way to move/reroute stuff in the Rack, they're liable to open the thing, see there's no relevant section, get frustrated, and close it out to get back to work. in fact, I don't see a shortcut for auto-routing via Shift+drag in there at all (it's possible I just missed it, but I searched for both [Shift]+Drag and [Shift]+Move, which seem to be the manual conventions).

[joeyluck]

The biggest problem with the rack metaphor is the cables.

The fact that stereo connections must always be made one cable at a time*, and that reordering devices requires four actions (move L from source, move R from source, reconnect L to destination, reconnect R to destination) is a workflow killer. In something like Ableton Live, that's a single click: You just drag the device somewhere else in the chain, and it's done.

If you hold shift when moving a device, it'll auto-route to the new order. This ought to be default behavior or at least made much more discoverable. It's been in since Reason 1.0 and so few of us know it exists!

You know I've suggested this approach a few times, as part of a 'show tips' mode:

hold-shift.png (633.88 KiB) Viewed 2754 times

I like your suggestion of the default behavior. I imagine many new users expect it to reroute by default.

Going off of your suggestion, perhaps an option could be added to the preferences, which not only allows the user to change the default behavior, but makes the key command more known.

So something like:

Moving devices in the rack:
● maintains cabling (holding Shift reroutes cabling)
○ reroutes cabling (holding Shift maintains cabling)

[esselfortium]

I like your suggestion of the default behavior. I imagine many new users expect it to reroute by default.

Going off of your suggestion, perhaps an option could be added to the preferences, which not only allows the user to change the default behavior, but makes the key command more known.

So something like:

Moving devices in the rack:
● maintains cabling (holding Shift reroutes cabling)
○ reroutes cabling (holding Shift maintains cabling)

That would be perfect!

[guitfnky]

If you hold shift when moving a device, it'll auto-route to the new order. This ought to be default behavior or at least made much more discoverable. It's been in since Reason 1.0 and so few of us know it exists!

You know I've suggested this approach a few times, as part of a 'show tips' mode:


hold-shift.png


I like your suggestion of the default behavior. I imagine many new users expect it to reroute by default.

Going off of your suggestion, perhaps an option could be added to the preferences, which not only allows the user to change the default behavior, but makes the key command more known.

So something like:

Moving devices in the rack:
● maintains cabling (holding Shift reroutes cabling)
○ reroutes cabling (holding Shift maintains cabling)

that screenshot is exactly how it should work. that's all that would be necessary to make features like that way more user-friendly (and well-known).